Blog: 【放射性がれき拡散】 細野環境相 「専門用語」散りばめるも答えにならず 

via: http://tanakaryusaku.jp/2012/04/0004023

 

【放射性がれき拡散】 細野環境相 「専門用語」散りばめるも答えにならず 

2012年4月4日 11:18

 

被災地瓦礫の処理状況を説明する細野環境相。=3日、環境省。撮影:田中龍作=

被災地瓦礫の処理状況を説明する細野環境相。=3日、環境省。撮影:田中龍作=
 
 31日、「瓦礫受け入れキャンペーン」で京都を訪れていた細野豪志環境相のぶら下がり記者会見で、筆者(諏訪)は測定時間などについて質問したのだが、大臣から返ってきたのは、要領を得ない答えだった。納得がいかない筆者は3日、環境省での記者会見で再び細野大臣に質した。 

諏訪:セシウム134と137だけの測定で大丈夫と大臣はお考えだそうだが、なぜか?

細野:セシウム134、137で測れるのは、これまでさまざまな測定をしてきたなかで、セシウムで測れば、それ以外の核種は、それよりも非常に、いわゆるその放射性物質においても、ベクレルにおいても、放射能というレベルにおいて懸念はない。

 細野氏は知っている専門用語を散りばめて話したが、答えになっていなかった。東京都や千葉県では人体に有害なγ線、α線が検出されている。α線が検出されているということは、セシウム以外の核種で放射能汚染されていることを示すものだ。なぜ懸念はないと言い切れるのか。
  
細野:広域処理をしているものについては、極めて低いレベルに留まっていますので、しかも木製の物に限定していますので、ですから、そこも含めて安全性を確保しまして広域処理をお願いしている。

諏訪:自治体によって測定時間と測定機種が違う。一例でよいから機種と測定時間を教えて下さい?

細野:測定時間は機種によってそれぞれですから、測定時間はこれ位測ればキチンと出るというのがありますから、それに基づいて行っている。何か全体的な基準を作ってというものはない。

「瓦礫受け入れキャンペーン」のため訪れた京都で、ぶら下がり記者会見に応じる細野大臣。諏訪(手前・赤いリュック)が追及したが、噛み合わない答えしか返ってこなかった。=31日、京都駅前。撮影:田中龍作=

「瓦礫受け入れキャンペーン」のため訪れた京都で、ぶら下がり記者会見に応じる細野大臣。諏訪(手前・赤いリュック)が追及したが、噛み合わない答えしか返ってこなかった。=31日、京都駅前。撮影:田中龍作=

 

諏訪:数値が低いほど測定時間が重要になってくる。それは何分なのか、何時間なのか?

細野:ですから、それぞれ機種によって違うので、それぞれの機種に応じて適正な使い方がありますから、それで測っているということです。

 筆者が測定時間について質問しているにも関わらず、大臣は「機種によって違う」と答えた。相変わらず噛み合わない。

諏訪:一例で結構ですので、機種をお伺いできませんか?

細野:一般的な話を一例で落とし込んでも意味がありませんから、機種によって違うからそれぞれで測る。

諏訪:5分なのか1時間なのか、それによって違うのか?
細野:機種によっても違うから、1時間とか何分とか言っても意味がないじゃないですか。

 機種は国産メーカーだけでも数十社ある。値段も80万円から上はキリがない。安い機種は検出限界値が高くなるため信頼性に欠ける。安定した数値を期待できるのは500万円以上の機種だ。

 同じ放射能含有量の検体を測っても、機種や測定時間によって検出される数値は異なる。複数の民間測定機関が数値を突き合わせたりするのは、このためだ。政府の発表する数値が国民の信頼を得ていないのは、民間機関のような緻密さに欠けるからではないだろうか。

 細野大臣と筆者の質疑応答は平行線のままだった。これで瓦礫を押し付けられる自治体の住民は納得いくだろうか。
(文・諏訪 京)


『田中龍作ジャーナル』は読者の支援金によって維持されています。

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ニュース:震災がれき:トヨタが最終処分場建設受け入れ方向で検討 (Article: Disaster Debris Wide-Area Disposal: Toyota Eager to Help at Its Factory Site in Aichi Prefecture on a Landfill)

毎日ニュースオリジナル

Translation by Ex-Skf

震災がれき:トヨタが最終処分場建設受け入れ方向で検討

毎日新聞 2012年04月05日 12時07分(最終更新 04月05日 12時21分)

 震災で発生したがれき処理で、トヨタ自動車が愛知県から打診されていた同社田原工場(同県田原市)敷地内での最終処分場建設を受け入れる方向で検討に入ったことが5日、明らかになった。周辺住民や工場従業員への影響を調査し、周辺住民や自治体の同意が得られれば、県と具体的な協議に入る方針。

 トヨタは「正式な要請があれば、前向きに検討する」とコメントしている。

 田原工場は埋め立て地に立地。敷地面積約370万平方メートルと、東京ドーム約80個分の広さがあり、高級車「レクサス」などを生産している。トヨタは東北を小型車の生産拠点と位置づけており、復興を支援する意味でも「可能なことは協力したい」としている。【米川直己】

Blog entry: Goshi Hosono’s Incomprehensible Remark About Radioactivity of Disaster Debris

Via Ex-Skf

日本語

Wednesday, April 4, 2012

Goshi Hosono’s Incomprehensible Remark About Radioactivity of Disaster Debris

 This philandering minister is in charge of the Fukushima nuclear accident and in charge of decontamination and disaster debris spreading.

From his April 3 press conference, by the reporter named Suwa and appeared in the blog by Ryusaku Tanaka, independent journalist:

諏訪:セシウム134と137だけの測定で大丈夫と大臣はお考えだそうだが、なぜか?

細野:セシウム134、137で測れるのは、これまでさまざまな測定をしてきたなかで、セシウムで測れば、それ以外の核種は、それよりも非常に、いわゆるその放射性物質においても、ベクレルにおいても、放射能というレベルにおいて懸念はない。

Suwa: You believe measuring cesium-134 and cesium-137 is enough. Why?

Hosono: What can be measured by measuring cesium-134 and cesium-137, of all the measurements we have done so far, if we measure using cesium, then the rest of the nuclides, more than that to a great degree, in so-called radioactive materials, or in becquerels, on the level of radioactivity, there is no concern.

Did you get it?

Hosono did his utmost best by using all the words he had heard, clearly without understanding any of them, since March 11, 2011 – cesium, nuclide, radioactive materials, becquerels, radioactivity. He could have spared the embarrassment by simply saying “I don’t know.”

He is one of those politicians in their early 40s whom the mass media want to portray as the next prime minister, although he is being eclipsed these days by the mayor of Osaka who behaves like a kindergarten bully in a sand box. A great future either way for Japan and the Japanese.

A fish rots from the head down.

小出裕章:私たちは放射能とどう闘えばよいのか Interview with Koide Hideaki: Japan’s Nightmare Fight Against Radiation in the Wake of the 3.11 Meltdown  

Copied and pasted from http://japanfocus.org/events/view/136
原文(日本語
Apr. 01, 2012

 Koide Hideaki, a researcher at Kyoto University’s Nuclear Reactor Experiment Research Center, speaks with Watanabe Taeko

 Translated by Kyoko Selden

It is now the second year in the fight against radiation. What should be done in a situation where we can’t see what lies ahead of us at all, and what is the situation inside the Fukushima atomic power plant meltdown? We asked Koide Hideaki.

—The fight against radiation and contamination has entered a second year and new issues are emerging. First I would like to ask about plans to widely disperse contaminated rubble, which are troubling the nation.

As far as radioactivity is concerned, the fundamental rule is to make it compact and seal it off, not dilute and spread it. Scattering rubble all over the country violates the rule. National policy at present consists of two pillars. One is for local governments throughout the country to burn contaminated rubble in incinerators. The other is for each local government to dispose of the ashes as it wishes. Both are wrong.

Although it is not good to scatter the rubble . . .

Radiation should not be handled except at facilities designed for that purpose. It should not be burned in an ordinary incinerator. If you do that, radioactive matter will disperse. If radioactive contaminated rubble has to be burnt throughout the country, then the first thing that has to be done is to check whether the facilities have the capacity to prevent radiation from scattering. If it seems that radiation may scatter, then equipment must be added to prevent it. Unless that is done, burning should not take place.

—Do you mean adding a filter?

Yes. Most incinerators are equipped with a bag filter. If that is correctly used, then I think that cesium can be processed. However, it is necessary to check whether radiation can, in fact, be captured by a filter. If a bagged filter doesn’t work, then it is necessary to add a ceramic or high performance filter to contain radiation.

Next, one should never allow each local government to bury the ashes. My proposal is to return the ashes to the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant. In the past, ashes following a meltdown have been used as material for making concrete. At Fukushima Daiichi, a concrete sarcophagus may be constructed over the power plants. Also, it will be necessary to build dams underground to prevent contaminated water from leaking out. For that, massive amounts of concrete will be necessary. So, my idea is to use the ashes to make concrete.

Ideally, incinerators should be used exclusively to handle the rubble at the actual site. But the country has not created appropriate incinerators. Even now the rubble is exposed to the air. If this situation continues unchecked, children in the contaminated areas will continue to be exposed to radiation.

I want to protect children from exposure to radiation. Children here includes those in Tokyo, Osaka, Fukushima, Miyagi, Iwate and all other areas. I think that the main issue is how we can best reduce children’s exposure to radiation. We cannot wait until an incinerating facility for exclusive handling of radiation-contaminated rubble is available. But if it can’t be helped that the entire country accepts the rubble, the two conditions that I posited must be fulfilled.

About half a month ago, thirty some members of Osaka’s Ishin no Kai (Mayor Hashimoto’s group) asked me about disposal of contaminated waste. My proposal was that it should not be done unless the two conditions have been met. But they ignored this. It seems they are claiming that, “Koide says that the rubble must be accepted.” People at large, too, are angry, saying that Koide is saying something preposterous. But I am saying no such thing.

If Reactor #4 Crumbles, That’s the End

—It was pointed out in the October 21 2011 issue that Reactor #4 is in danger. Recently, an aerial video was broadcast showing workers at #4.

I saw that video, too. The environment is one of intense exposure to radiation. How many minutes can one stay in that place? It’s work that requires a stopwatch held in one’s hand. But the work has to be done because, if the pool for spent fuel rods at # 4 crumbles, that’s the end. So, the spent fuel at the bottom of the pool has to be taken out before the pool crumbles. At any rate, it has to be removed as soon as possible, before an after shock occurs. For that purpose, some radiation exposure is inescapable.

The reactor core contains approximately 100 tons of uranium. The pool for spent fuel at reactor #4 contains approximately 2.5 times that amount of spent fuel . . . approximately 250 tons. And besides that, there is fuel that has not yet been spent. So, in all, the amount of fuel must be around 300 tons. That is 4,000 times the size of the Hiroshima atomic bomb. Spent fuel is a huge mass of nuclear reaction product. Keeping it at the bottom of the pool allows it to be cooled. At the same time, radiation is blocked.

It cannot be released into the air, so the only way to handle it is to sink a special container exclusively for removal of the spent fuel. The only way is to put the spent fuel into the container within the pool, put a lid over the container and pull it out. But the floor of the reactor building where the spent fuel pool is buried is crumbling, so a crane cannot be used. Therefore, it is necessary to suspend a long armed crane from outside the building, which means that you have to make a colossal container that exceeds the weight of 100 tons. You have to sink the crane to the bottom of the pool and move the spent fuel into it. This is an enormous operation.

—What about re-criticality and explosion?

I think that the possibility of re-criticality is low, and I don’t think that there will be an explosion. When the fuel melted and the zirconium reacted with water to produce hydrogen, the hydrogen leaked into the closed space in the reactor building and an explosion occurred. The spent fuel pool is now exposed, but even if the fuel melts and produces hydrogen, it is not accumulating within a closed space. It becomes diluted and escapes. So I don’t think that there will be a hydrogen explosion. However, spent fuel is heat generating. If water evaporates and cooling becomes impossible, then the temperature rises and the fuel melts. It melts at 2800 degrees (C.) At that temperature, what can become a gas will all come out. Iodine, cesium, all kinds of radiation, will suddenly jump out into the air.

We Want to Take it Out, But We Can’t Take it Out

As mentioned, the basic principle for handling radiation is to not spread but seal it in as compactly as possible. So if it is there, then take it out and compact it.

TEPCO and the government imagine that Reactors No. 1-3 had a meltdown of the fuel and the bottom of the pressure containment vessel dropped, so the fuel is at the bottom of the container. But even that is not clear. It is possible that the bottom of the containment vessel is also broken, so the fuel may have sunk even lower. If that is the case, it can no longer be taken out and the only thing to do is to seal it in place.

The Chernobyl Nuclear Reactor was sealed with a sarcophagus without taking out the fuel. Now that coffin is crumbling, so they have to make a second coffin. That too will crumble, so eventually they will have to make a third . . . to be repeated eternally. I think that this will be the case at Fukushima, too. You make a huge concrete coffin; when it crumbles, you cover it with a larger coffin . . . then an even bigger coffin. It is an overwhelming operation. So if possible it would be good to take the fuel out, including the fuel that has already melted. TEPCO also says so. But I think that will take more than ten years to accomplish.

—Concerning the report that the thermometer broke at No. 2, should this claim be taken at face value?

Yes, I think it is broken. Radiation generates heat, so if it accumulates where the thermometer is, the temperature rises. However, the thermometer indicated 400 degrees C. It is impossible that a temperature of 400 degrees C. could be generated in the pressure containment vessel. So after all my guess is that the thermometer is broken. TEPCO’s conjecture seems to be the same.

That thermometer uses the principle of thermocoupling. It is a very simple principle and it rarely breaks down. So what does it mean that the thermometer broke?

Some time ago, TEPCO put an industrial TV set inside the containment vessel of No. 2. Water was not visible. In short, water has not accumulated there. Moreover, inside the containment vessel, water is dropping like a waterfall, radiation rays are flying wildly and the image on TV is scarred. It was realized afresh that this was a terrible environment. In that environment, a cable runs which pulls the signal of the thermocouple outside. What I think is that the cable was hit.

This means that from now on, thermometer after thermometer will break. When they break, we have no clue to detect what is going on and we will less and less understand the present situation.

What Does it Mean to Decommission a Nuclear Reactor?

—We often hear of decommissioning, but what precisely is meant?

When a nuclear plant operates and stops without any big accident, that is, when it runs its course, the reactor is then decommissioned and the spent fuel is removed, but the pressure vessel and other things remain a radioactive mass. So, how is decommissioning accomplished? To oversimplify, there are two approaches.

One is to bury it on the spot. You seal the door so that people cannot approach. In this method, you don’t have to do too much and there is little exposure to radiation. However, this means that the power plant itself becomes garbage. So it’s thought that this is not a very good plan for a country like Japan where land is scarce. So Japan proposes another method.

That method is to take apart the plant and sort out things ranging from badly contaminated parts like the pressure vessel to things that are not so badly contaminated. Something like a pressure vessel can’t be handled, so it is necessary to make a deep hole and bury it. As for things that are not badly contaminated with radiation, because it is too much work to baby-sit them given the radiation, they can be handled as general waste.

Handling these parts as general waste is called clearance. But when you chop up a nuclear plant, you get 600,000 cubic meters. When you sort that garbage by degree of radiation, more than 90% is barely contaminated, so it can be handled as general waste.

For example, iron. It may be viewed as general waste. Then scrap iron dealers buy it and recycle it, making for example, tables or desks or frying pans for home use. If you cook with such a frying pan, you will eat radiation with the food. If you eat something cooked in that pan, and if the amount of radiation does not exceed 10 mSv, then it’s ok. This was the law up to now. This is what decommissioning a nuclear reactor means.

But the case this time is completely different. First, it’s not clear if the spent fuel can be removed and it’s hardly possible to dismantle the reactor. So whatever we choose, there has to be a sarcophagus. But it is said that to decommission a normal atomic power plant without problems takes 30, 40, or 50 years. So, it will take far longer to decommission Fukushima Daiichi, which has melted down.

To Mothers of Fukushima

—I hear that in Koriyama, people who call themselves advisors have been instructing groups of ten or more people saying, “We radiation specialists are here, so you need not worry.” When people are totally exhausted, many feel “that’s enough”. Fukushima mothers say that they are utterly exhausted. May I have your message for them?

I’m not qualified. I’m at one end of the spectrum of the group of criminals. I’m among the criminals who made them shoulder a heavy weight. I can only say that I’m very sorry. It’s impossible to keep facing fear forever. That is exhausting and people want to forget if possible. How are we to handle such a heavy burden? If you speak of monetary calculation, individual suffering and sorrow can’t be translated into money and there is already a huge amount of sorrow. It’s hard to know what to do. As long as one lives, there is no choice but to live with this reality. I’m very sorry. I don’t know how to apologize. But apology doesn’t allow one to take responsibility. I have long been thinking about what I can do to reduce radiation exposure in children, if only a little. And I would like to continue to do so.

Interviewer: Watanabe Taeko (editorial board, Shukan Kinyobi.)

Koide Hiroaki, b. 1949, assistant professor, Kyoto University, Nuclear Reactor Experiment Research Center.

Main writings: Genpatsu no uso (The Lie of Nuclear Power) (Fusosha); Genpatsu wa iranai (We don’t need Genpatsu) (Gentosha); Genpatsu. hoshano — kodomo ga abunai (Nuclear Power Generation: Radiation. Children are in Danger (co-authored, Bunshun Shinsho).

Kyoko Selden is an Asia-Pacific Journal associate. With Noriko Mizuta she edited and translated Japanese Women Writers and More Stories by Japanese Women Writers. She is the coeditor and translator of The Atomic Bomb: Voices From Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

This interview appeared in the March 16, 2012 Shukan Kinyobi.